Pie in the sky rule change requests - 2012

[CWeber]

I actually wish there were so many TTers that the regional events would be run like Nationals where the TTA, TTR and TTU cars have their own class and the TTB through TTF run in another group... lets people have more room and the momentum cars aren't slowed down in corners as much by some of the big HP cars who drag race corner to corner

 

black TTR mustang (cough cough):

 

That seemed to be a pretty good example of a driver that stands on the gas down the straights but throws out the anchor (for too long) in the corners. What did the Mustang driver have to say when you mentioned the situation to him/her in the download meeting after that session?

 

I am excited that we are already 25% of the way to catching the hardtop thread. MOAR POSTS!

 

Mark

 

 

Nothing was said to that driver by my husband in that download session because he blew the motor that same session and had to wait to be towed off so he never made it to that download meeting obviously... I didn't bother saying anything myself when I was out in my Miata on Sunday when we swapped racing vs. TTing and shared my Miata since the G20 motor blew on the g20 Saturday morning. Sunday didn't count for any points and I certainly am not a normal TTer so it just made for some entertaining track experiences.

 

...and we happen to own a 1990 fox body mustang with built stroker motor... almost makes us want to take it out of mothballs to run it a few times in TTR next season... lol (and no, we wouldn't be dropping anchor for the corners like that)

[TurboShortBus]

3. all reclasses are too far away from the minimum power:weight for the indicated desired class.

Of the 4 consistently quick cars in TTD down here, 3 have received base re-classes, and they are all right on the money for the adjusted weight/power ratio for the class. Mine is the 4th; it is classed via the typical points method and it is dead-nuts on the adjusted ratio. They are all within a second and change of each other at a big track like Sebring, too. So, for these cars, I would say that the re-class equations work out fine.

 

Some cars have warts, even with a re-class...

 

Mark

[kbrew8991]

cars that ARE close to the hp/weight caps (either via points or reclasses) should have other warts - can't turn well, can't stop, poor aero, poor grip off corners, or some combination. Conversely when you aren't on the limit and can't get there (either via points or via your reclass) you should be making up the time by getting into, off of, and through the twisty stuff better.

 

Are you suggesting you've got some data points that indicate that this may not be the case?

[TurboShortBus]

cars that ARE close to the hp/weight caps (either via points or reclasses) should have other warts - can't turn well,

Mustang

can't stop,

Mustang

poor aero,

Mustang

poor grip off corners,

Mustang

or some combination.

Mustang

 

I love my 1978 Fairmont! Who wanted to ban them again? It would seem that they are sitting ducks...

 

Mark

[CWeber]

I want to see a Dodge Sprinter out there!

[brkntrxn]

I might as well put the rollbar back in my Cobra vert and TT it. Just to piss off all of you.

[clydesdale]

there's a very good reason I don't race in TTS/ST2 and/or similar classes - those open rulesets are way too effing expensive. Really, you want to open up EVERYTHING so long as you're within the hp/weight caps? Screw that. Tear up my NASA membership if that happens and I'll go play golf or something because there's no way I'll be able to run up front ever again.

 

Nevermind that you seem to be one of the rare cases that comes out slower after a hp/weight reclass anyway...

 

Any car that is reclassed A-F today already needs to deal with all the other items as well. I wasn't suggesting that A-F should be open class but rather that the weight and engine mods should get tossed in favor of dyno HP/weight classing for all cars. It allows every single car to match performance and weight to class. One could certainly argue that the same weight can be distributed differently and that the same peak HP can have different torque curves. The SUR classes don't seem to take any issue with those differences so are they really relevant enough to worry about for A-F?

 

Here is the data points that I have:

 

A TTB* reclassed STI/Evo is allowed 270 awhp and 3260#. The same car using 7 points will do 300 awhp or more. A C5 vette gets 305whp at 3246# for TTB* along with heavier springs, sways , 50/50 weight, wheels that are 1.5" wider from the factory, lower drag, and stiffer frame. 303awhp and 3260# put the STI/Evo at TTA. A 350Z with 265whp and 3190# gets reclassed TTC.

 

Many thanks to the preposition police, I meant "under" weight and not "over"-- post has been edited.

[awdracer]

Randy, since the reclass formula for NASA is kept in a bunker in South Dakota, we don't get to see the inner workings of the dyno reclass formula. However, it sounds like you have an issue with one particular car. If you think that the STI/EVO is an underdog to a the C5, compile some results around the country to show this and submit it to Greg. Don't frame the issue as a systemic one.

 

Last year, several cars got performance adjustments so the process can work.

[SNAKBITN]

Damn Mark,if I would have had all thoses problems with my mustang I would have pushed it off a cliff,then went and bought a vette.I pretty sure thats what most mustang owners do if they can't figure out how to drive a mustang,they take the easy way out.They do make a few parts to help with thoses problems ya know.

 

Robert

[TurboShortBus]

Damn Mark,if I would have had all thoses problems with my mustang I would have pushed it off a cliff,then went and bought a vette.I pretty sure thats what most mustang owners do if they can't figure out how to drive a mustang,they take the easy way out.They do make a few parts to help with thoses problems ya know.

 

Robert

Yeah, but good luck staying in TTD with those parts!

 

Mine goes like a mofo in a straight line, so I try to take advantage of the big and skinny pedals (which work fairly well). The round thing in front of me isn't good for much, so I try not to use it too often.

 

My favorite part about my car was explaining to a Miata driver how the straight axle works. Really? This thing is Axle v1.0!

 

FWIW, this car held the TTD records at Sebring and Homestead (and was getting quicker) until I chose to sit out the 2011 season. So, it's not too bad.

 

Mark

[SNAKBITN]

And the truth comes out!

You need to go ahead and add afew parts and move it up to TTC.You'll be damn competitive there was well.

 

Robert

[clydesdale]

Randy, since the reclass formula for NASA is kept in a bunker in South Dakota, we don't get to see the inner workings of the dyno reclass formula. However, it sounds like you have an issue with one particular car. If you think that the STI/EVO is an underdog to a the C5, compile some results around the country to show this and submit it to Greg. Don't frame the issue as a systemic one.

 

Last year, several cars got performance adjustments so the process can work.

 

That's a fair point for you to make if you think there is equivalence between reclassing and performance modification points. I don't personally believe that to be true and I don't look at the topic as a case study for me to gain competitiveness with a C5. If we can objectively quantify two performance components on any car, horsepower and weight, without undue expense or difficulty then there's really no reason to have a subjective quantification of performance. Given that you can't quantify aero or chassis or suspension without large amounts of money and mathematics, I think the subjective point assignment is a reasonable choice in those cases. Some might make the argument that a dyno run is too expensive to be a requirement-- to them I would ask how much they spent on tires, gas, entry fees, and brakes this year. If you don't want to spend money on a dyno that's fine too, run TTR.

 

I look forward to hearing what your reclass numbers are for next year; given what you've said, there should be no disadvantage for you to do so.

[kbrew8991]

You're not obligated to run under a reclass just because you ask for one - pick which works better. If both suck, then there is a possibility there is an issue with how your car is classed.

 

That said it'd really make these speculations go away if the formula were published, or at least it's inputs / factors.

 

PS - if you use points-for-power and/or points-for-weight then you just use the published base classing right? Where do those published base classes come from?

[clydesdale]

You're not obligated to run under a reclass just because you ask for one - pick which works better. If both suck, then there is a possibility there is an issue with how your car is classed.

 

That said it'd really make these speculations go away if the formula were published, or at least it's inputs / factors.

 

PS - if you use points-for-power and/or points-for-weight then you just use the published base classing right? Where do those published base classes come from?

 

Of course everyone will choose whichever system gives them the advantage. But why allow an advantage to be taken or a disadvantage to be given if both could be avoided by simplifying the system? In my case I'm obligated to use a reclass since I have an '08 turbo instead of an '05 turbo. What I haven't heard yet is any argument that suggests requiring dyno's is somehow unfair.

[kbrew8991]

I'm indifferent from a personal standpoint as I use a dyno reclass so I need a dyno anyway. 125whp & 2657lbs with the stuff I run puts me at 21.506 adjusted, compared to a class limit of 19.500. 2 full points off and a base of F with one star btw so not many points to spend either. Yet I think I've got the car working well enough and feel like I've got my driving to the point where it's got a great shot at winning on any given weekend (including Nationals). The car has to make up it's time on the "rocketship" fwd "F" cars by getting through the corners and brake zones better which it seems to do so far.

 

From a director standpoint I can see it being a bit more of a PITA to require a dyno from everyone and force everyone into a dyno reclass (one more thing to track everyone down for and twist their arm about until they give it to me, much like classing forms and everything else ugh) but nothing terribly major. Might be more work on Greg too as he'd now have to get an email from everyone and respond to that email before they are technically legal for stuff below TTR/S/U - ouch.

 

Submit the purposal in the offseason and see what happens. I'd also ask for a re-evaluation of your WRXs and such too as it doesn't seem like they're quite right according to yourself and your data. Won't hurt, right?

 

PS - is the 08 Turbo really that much better? From what you've said it seems like you'd have more flexibility in your classing and thus more ability to be competitve (by chosing to run points-for-parts if you wanted or the hp/weight reclass) with the correct year turbo. Not to come across as rude but that might just be your problem right there... it's not the ruleset's problem if you aren't selecting the correct parts to make full use of the points (or effective points you're saddled with via the reclass).

Edited October 13, 2011 by Guest

[CWeber]

Damn Mark,if I would have had all thoses problems with my mustang I would have pushed it off a cliff,then went and bought a vette.I pretty sure thats what most mustang owners do if they can't figure out how to drive a mustang,they take the easy way out.They do make a few parts to help with thoses problems ya know.

 

Robert

 

actually, we see lots of people buy spec miata's and sell them again after just 1 or 2 races (sometimes after 1 season) since they aren't fast right away in them and those same people tend to go back to a higher HP car and it makes many of us just

 

Getting a spec miata and learning to drive a momentum car properly is what I wish I started with instead of having to unlearn all my bad habits but some of us have to learn the hard way.

 

I'm so much faster in a 993 now that I drive a Miata... go figure.. lol

[Cobra4B]

Getting a spec miata and learning to drive a momentum car properly is what I wish I started with instead of having to unlearn all my bad habits but some of us have to learn the hard way.

 

I'm so much faster in a 993 now that I drive a Miata... go figure.. lol

I don't understand this logic... sure you might leard some preservation of momentum stuff, but you don't learn high speed threshold braking, you don't learn throttle modulation coming out of a turn, you don't learn high speed corrections etc. etc. I love how people think that if you learn in a Miata you learn how to "truly" drive. There's a lot more to driving a high power RWD car fast than getting it pointed straight and mashing the loud pedal. Futhermore, when racing against similar power/weight vehicles in your class every car is a "momentum car".

[Varkwso]

If I could get Miatas from slowing me down in the turns I would be happy. What rule would that be?

 

All cars are momentum cars....some just come with more power.

[kbrew8991]

For a beginner the loud pedal covers up mistakes and the "fast" car can stunt growth until they realize it. Once you're advanced yes, all cars are momentumn cars sure.

 

It's also easier to see those mitakes in Miatae because there are usually eleventy brazillion ones just like it on track with you in any given session and when you lose car lengths to the same car as yours corner after corner the lightbulb usually goes on.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Guest

[awdracer]

Getting a spec miata and learning to drive a momentum car properly is what I wish I started with instead of having to unlearn all my bad habits but some of us have to learn the hard way.

 

I'm so much faster in a 993 now that I drive a Miata... go figure.. lol

I don't understand this logic... sure you might leard some preservation of momentum stuff, but you don't learn high speed threshold braking, you don't learn throttle modulation coming out of a turn, you don't learn high speed corrections etc. etc. I love how people think that if you learn in a Miata you learn how to "truly" drive. There's a lot more to driving a high power RWD car fast than getting it pointed straight and mashing the loud pedal. Futhermore, when racing against similar power/weight vehicles in your class every car is a "momentum car".

 

It's all the same stuff. The only difference is the top speed in the straights. SM modulate throttle. All low HP cars do when they are driven correctly. The lines do change in high hp vs low hp cars because the high hp car wants to end the corner and start the straight but it's all the same stuff. That point cannot be argued.

[clydesdale]

PS - is the 08 Turbo really that much better? From what you've said it seems like you'd have more flexibility in your classing and thus more ability to be competitve (by chosing to run points-for-parts if you wanted or the hp/weight reclass) with the correct year turbo. Not to come across as rude but that might just be your problem right there...

 

There's too much done to the engine to go anywhere but TTS. At the time, I intended to build a supremely reliable engine with a small improvement over stock horsepower. In hindsight I would do absolutely everything necessary to avoid reclassing (and pick a different engine builder as it failed earlier this year anyway). De-modification is the inevitable process everyone goes through once joining TT and realizing what parts aren't worth the points. I thought reclassing would be a fair way (and less expensive way) to accomplish the same thing.

 

You have to admit that Greg avoids a lot of arguments and explanations by limiting the information available on classing. I can't say that I blame him for that.

[Cobra4B]

It's all the same stuff.

No it's not... things happen a whole bunch faster on a 2:00 lap than a 2:20 lap. Not saying people who choose to drive slower cars can't drive, just that I think it'd be easier for me to get up to speed in a SM than it would for a SM guy to go drive a TTU/ST1 car to its full potential.

[kbrew8991]

Going in either direction there's going to be some adaptation to the subtlties. To say there won't be is a slap in the face to the people that are there already.

[sperkins]

There's too much done to the engine to go anywhere but TTS.

 

There's your problem. Don't blame the system and try to change it because you screwed up in the beginning.

 

 

De-modification is the inevitable process everyone goes through once joining TT and realizing what parts aren't worth the points.

 

Simply not true. I didn't have to remove one single thing from either of my cars for TT.

 

 

I thought reclassing would be a fair way (and less expensive way) to accomplish the same thing.

 

So you thought you could have enough engine point mods that would bump you to TTS and still compete in your base class?

 

 

You have to admit that Greg avoids a lot of arguments and explanations by limiting the information available on classing.

 

It's explained in the rules how re-classing is done. It's a case by case basis and includes many factors other than horsepower such as torque in the usable rpm range. You can't expect him to list every single scenario.

[drivinhardz06]

we keep coming back to the same things, mustangs should be banned and turbo cars should get their own class

 

I always saw the reclass thing as (originally, I thought anyway) as a way to put a car with an engine swap into a class (A-F) other than having to run it in TTS. Seems like every car wants a reclass now. Seems to open big cans of worms.