ILIKETODRIVE Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Add ban FWD cars... Hey hey hey! No need to make this personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 This is a rule suggestion regarding ECU points that I emailed to Greg. Figured I would post it here to generate some discussion. I've been thinking a bit about the rules regarding replacement ECU's and OEM ECU tuning. As you know, to replace an ECU is a 3 point modification (if NA) or 10 points for forced induction. However, it is a 'free' modification to tune your car if your car has a reprogrammable ECU. Either method will allow the owner to fully tune their car for optimal hp gains by improving on the stock calibration, tuning for race gas, or taking advantage of the other engine modifications that they have made. The problem is, some vehicles have the ability to do this as a 'free' modification, but others do not - many cars do not have the ability to retune via the OEM ECU. I feel that the ability to adjust your engine calibration via ECU tuning should either: a) Be a points modification for all vehicles regardless of OEM retuning capability, or b) ECU replacement/retuning should be a free modification for all vehicles period. After all, it doesn't really matter the method used to re-calibrate your engine, the end result is the same. Why should some cars have this advantage while others do not? Now, the issue with making it a points modification for all vehicles is that it would be difficult to police whether or not an OEM ECU has been retuned or reflashed. It is my suggestion then that ECU tuning be a no points modification for all vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted October 29, 2011 Members Share Posted October 29, 2011 All S2000's need 2 more stars. There, done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Jason must have an 05 or older S2000. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Ban S2000s unless the have an aftermarket hardtop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 This is a rule suggestion regarding ECU points that I emailed to Greg. Figured I would post it here to generate some discussion. I've been thinking a bit about the rules regarding replacement ECU's and OEM ECU tuning. As you know, to replace an ECU is a 3 point modification (if NA) or 10 points for forced induction. However, it is a 'free' modification to tune your car if your car has a reprogrammable ECU. Either method will allow the owner to fully tune their car for optimal hp gains by improving on the stock calibration, tuning for race gas, or taking advantage of the other engine modifications that they have made. The problem is, some vehicles have the ability to do this as a 'free' modification, but others do not - many cars do not have the ability to retune via the OEM ECU. I feel that the ability to adjust your engine calibration via ECU tuning should either: a) Be a points modification for all vehicles regardless of OEM retuning capability, or b) ECU replacement/retuning should be a free modification for all vehicles period. After all, it doesn't really matter the method used to re-calibrate your engine, the end result is the same. Why should some cars have this advantage while others do not? Now, the issue with making it a points modification for all vehicles is that it would be difficult to police whether or not an OEM ECU has been retuned or reflashed. It is my suggestion then that ECU tuning be a no points modification for all vehicles. OEM tunable are limited in their capability. Not comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 you can also account for ECU tuneability points-free via base class adjustments - moving to any/all ECUs being free just makes the already too long, too expensive free mod list longer - no thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Well, two cars that I'm familiar with that have tunable ECU's are a Subaru WRX and an Acura RSX. Neither of those are limited in the least. Same goes for a bunch of older Honda's, as well as 06+ S2000. All you need is the ability to tune fuel and spark to make power... Ken, I agree that base classing would be a great way to account for vehicles have tune-able ECUs. However, I would wager that when the base classes for most of the cars out there was determined, they were classed while running their stock ECU calibrations. We're talking about a 3-point mod here, Greg isn't going to go change the base class for a bunch of cars because they do or don't have tune-able oem ECUs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 So sliced bread.... How the hell do that do that anyways?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Well, two cars that I'm familiar with that have tunable ECU's are a Subaru WRX and an Acura RSX. Neither of those are limited in the least. Same goes for a bunch of older Honda's, as well as 06+ S2000. All you need is the ability to tune fuel and spark to make power... Ken, I agree that base classing would be a great way to account for vehicles have tune-able ECUs. However, I would wager that when the base classes for most of the cars out there was determined, they were classed while running their stock ECU calibrations. We're talking about a 3-point mod here, Greg isn't going to go change the base class for a bunch of cars because they do or don't have tune-able oem ECUs. No be will probably say every Frog has it's warts Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Well, two cars that I'm familiar with that have tunable ECU's are a Subaru WRX and an Acura RSX. Neither of those are limited in the least. Same goes for a bunch of older Honda's, as well as 06+ S2000. All you need is the ability to tune fuel and spark to make power... Ken, I agree that base classing would be a great way to account for vehicles have tune-able ECUs. However, I would wager that when the base classes for most of the cars out there was determined, they were classed while running their stock ECU calibrations. We're talking about a 3-point mod here, Greg isn't going to go change the base class for a bunch of cars because they do or don't have tune-able oem ECUs. No be will probably say every Frog has it's warts Peter Wait for it....(where are you Mark/Ken?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 Every fart has its smell..... no wait thats not right.... Ken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcindric Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ECU TUNING there is a huge difference in what you can do to rear wheel hp and torque being a flat line vs an OEM ECU which nothing can be changed, I run my dyno to know where I am, Tuning needs to be addressed, Jon G/L TTB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I think open the ECU or even it up somehow. I mean the 01-05 s2000 is not flashable and the 06-09 is, same points. Potentially you can make make 10-15HP for free with the reflash on 06-09 cars. You can control everything an aftermarket ECU can do with the 06-09 Hondata flashpro - I think they even worked out how to do boost control for a turbo with the reflash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'm ok with evening them up via base class / weight adjustments. Opening it up as a free mod = no thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 If you are a dyno reclass car you can install an $8000 motec if you want to. If you are a points car then you get a stock reflash using stock hardware or if you can prove that you added a daughterboard that doesn't do anything then you can have that too of course some cars have fully reflashable ecu's like the WRX and they can get a huge bump in hp with a reflash and 100octane of course then you have cars that can't do anything so you don't have to take points but some cars can use fully tunable ecu reflash software like hondata and get to take zero points while the same capability for other cars is not available and they need to take points for the same functionality but we've been through this before and that's how it is even though after all these years people obviously still don't understand it because the rule is incoherent so tough sh*t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Record? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Record? For a run-on sentence? I think it is. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob S. Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) People have touched on the important aspects of an engine calibration that affects hp/torque; fuel and timing. Having access to these maps in the OEM ECU allows the tuner to not only make more peak whp but also taylor the hp curve as to not go over a max value while maximizing torque at the same time. On a turbo car this is huge as the engine could make the max allowable whp value from 4K rpm to redline and a mountain of torque....literally. Here's an example of two calibrations both making pretty much the same whp but the blue line is maximizing torque. The area under the curve is dramatically different. This is capable with an OEM ECU. Even NA cars can do this calibration strategy but obviously the curve is not as dramatic as on a boosted car. Basically cars with reflashable ECU's are getting whp and/or torque for free. It's important to include torque. Which of the two calibrations on the above example would you rather have for a max allowable whp of 310? Whether it's 5 or 20whp/torque.....it's free. I know policing reflashes is just about impossible but I hope there is a different solution than makes it fair for cars unable to reflash. Maybe if a car has a non-reflashable ECU it get a 3pt credit. Just an idea. Also an OEM ECU does a much better job (because of the 10,000+ hrs of ECU calibration) than an aftermarket ECU adjusting for barometric changes enabling the tuning to get even closer to the max allowable whp without worrying about going over if the temp drops 20F. It's impossible to change barometric conditions on a readily available chassis dyno in order to adjust the timing/fuel trim maps in an aftermarket ECU. Edited October 31, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cucamelsmd15 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Well, two cars that I'm familiar with that have tunable ECU's are a Subaru WRX and an Acura RSX. Neither of those are limited in the least. Im not familiar with the RSX, but I am familiar with the WRX, and if you cant see that the WRX (even the 32-bit ECU) is severely limited by the OEM electronics, you must be blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Well, two cars that I'm familiar with that have tunable ECU's are a Subaru WRX and an Acura RSX. Neither of those are limited in the least. Im not familiar with the RSX, but I am familiar with the WRX, and if you cant see that the WRX (even the 32-bit ECU) is severely limited by the OEM electronics, you must be blind. Is the WRX as limited as a normally aspirated car with no reflash capability? I have a WRX for a DD. I installed an exhaust and a reflash of the stock ECU and added 60 hp. "Limited" is all relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Record? For a run-on sentence? I think it is. Mark I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cucamelsmd15 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Is the WRX as limited as a normally aspirated car with no reflash capability? Of course not. The previous assertion was that the OEM ECU in the WRX is limitless. I can assure you, its definitely not. Anyone can install an exhaust, flash it with an AccessPort and pick up 60hp/tq. That still leaves the limiting electronics (MAF, MAP, knock sensor, knock control and learning algorithm, base/advance maps for timing and boost etc etc) in place. Which brings us back to: OEM tunable are limited in their capability. Not comparable. I agree. The only reason I chimed in is because the WRX was pitched as a magical purple unicorn that has some whiz-bang ECU in it that was limitless. Its not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob S. Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 OEM tunable are limited in their capability. Not comparable. What trickery do you need to make more pwr with a stock ECU? NA engine - timing and fuel maps Boosted engine - timing, fuel and duty cycle (for pwm valve for turbo actuator) maps The other areas like rev limiter and speed limiter can easily be changed on any re-flashable OEM ECU. What other areas are you referring to on an aftermarket ECU that make it not comparable? Most of the aftermarket ECU's have significantly better data logging than an OEM ECU, which makes it more desirable for pro race teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I agree - spark, fuel, boost - it's all you need. Sure, if you're going to try to take your wrx and make it into a 500whp beast, then sure, you might hit some limitations with the oem system. But not we're not talking about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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