brkntrxn Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 While I am not onboard with street tires, I will state what I said in the similar thread last year: give an index for people running a 100 treadwear tire. That way some folks can run NT01s or RA1s and still be competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 we don't need an index for them, we just need to juggle the points such that they're "even". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 While I am not onboard with street tires, I will state what I said in the similar thread last year: give an index for people running a 100 treadwear tire. That way some folks can run NT01s or RA1s and still be competitive. Doesn't the points system take care of that or are you saying the points returned are not enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakisoba Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I'm all for using some traqmate for the top folks. It would be like a badge of honor to have the scrutineers come set it up in your car. The reality is that knowing HP/wt is important for all classes, yet it isn't treated that way in the rules. We need to change that, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 While I am not onboard with street tires, I will state what I said in the similar thread last year: give an index for people running a 100 treadwear tire. That way some folks can run NT01s or RA1s and still be competitive. Doesn't the points system take care of that or are you saying the points returned are not enough? The points returned are not enough. There is no way to be competitive on a 100 treadwear tire. Trust me, I love my purple crack, but I think the points should allow someone to run a lesser tire and get enough of a power and weight break that they can make up their lack of corner grip with increased straightline speed. Kinda like when you have a TTA car on stickies running with an SUR car on less than stickies. We catch them in the corners and they pull away on the straights. -Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 The reality is that knowing HP/wt is important for all classes, yet it isn't treated that way in the rules. We need to change that, in my opinion. Yeah, but the factory HP ratings are used when base classing the cars and any modifications incur points which are accounted for in the rules. I know there are those who may try to sneak in a cheater cam or swap engine parts that aren't legal, but I would say that the majority play by the rules. I think the rules are extremely thorough. I can base class my car 3 different ways and either way I choose puts me at nearly the exact same place in the end. I think if we screw around too much with the program or make it too much like race groups, that participation will suffer. It's really easy now for guys to crossover from HPDE to TT with little hassle. Isn't that the whole point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I think the points should allow someone to run a lesser tire and get enough of a power and weight break that they can make up their lack of corner grip with increased straightline speed. I can see giving more points they can use for aero, suspension etc., but I'm not for allowing them to exceed the class pw/wt ratio that much. I think it would be a mess trying to get a good lap if you're stuck behind a high hp car that can't turn (not that it doesn't already happen with other class cars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yeah, but the factory HP ratings are used when base classing the cars and any modifications incur points which are accounted for in the rules. I know there are those who may try to sneak in a cheater cam or swap engine parts that aren't legal, but I would say that the majority play by the rules. Cams are one thing, but you know as well as I do that a simple tune and nothing more is worth 15rwhp on some (our) cars. That is a LOT in our classes. I too see the need for dynoing some cars. And I like the way Jeff does it: if you are on the podium in any class, expect to have to turn in a dyno sheet. I think if we screw around too much with the program or make it too much like race groups, that participation will suffer. It's really easy now for guys to crossover from HPDE to TT with little hassle. Isn't that the whole point? Very good point and the current formula works very well as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 dyno sheets can be fudged fairly easily - Traqmate and/or trackside dynos are the way to go imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 dyno sheets can be fudged fairly easily - Traqmate and/or trackside dynos are the way to go imho. Trackside dynos -- yes. TraqMate -- no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 dyno sheets can be fudged fairly easily - Traqmate and/or trackside dynos are the way to go imho. I can't seem to get any reliable data out of a Traqmate in order to make accurate judgment calls on horsepower. Case in point...at a recent Sebring event, one of my TM boxes said that the backstretch has a pair of 3-foot drops, while the other TM box says that the backstretch is flat, but with a sudden 3-foot jump-ramp in the middle (uh, it's an old WW2 runway, so it's flat). Of course, that backstretch is probably the best place to calculate horsepower (flat out, top gear, smooth surface), but since both boxes are all over the place with regards to track elevation, I'm not sure that they can be trusted for this purpose. Hell, if I look at one competitor's quickest lap, the elevation of the track at the start/finish line at the beginning of the lap is 4 feet different than the elevation at the S/F line at the end of the lap. I'm all for a trackside dyno, but we haven't been able to guarantee a minimum number of cars in order for a dyno operator to drag his operation out. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 dyno sheets can be fudged fairly easily - Traqmate and/or trackside dynos are the way to go imho. Trackside dynos -- yes. TraqMate -- no. What do you have against a significantly cheaper and easier method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 dyno sheets can be fudged fairly easily - Traqmate and/or trackside dynos are the way to go imho. Trackside dynos -- yes. TraqMate -- no. What do you have against a significantly cheaper and easier method? Accuracy and repeatability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 National has some way they've been able to tweak whatever boxes they're using to get consistent enough results as compared to their trackside dynos... I assume you've talked to them though Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 National has some way they've been able to tweak whatever boxes they're using to get consistent enough results as compared to their trackside dynos... I assume you've talked to them though Mark. I cannot get Ron at Traqmate to return my voicemails from 2 weeks ago through yesterday, although Glenn at Traqmate has recently replied to my email. But, I haven't gotten the answers that I'm looking for yet, and event results are on hold as a result. From what I briefly saw of TM use at the Championships this year, I didn't see any great examples of consistency, but again, I was only in the TM trailer for a few minutes a couple of times per day. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomn29 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 National has some way they've been able to tweak whatever boxes they're using to get consistent enough results as compared to their trackside dynos... I assume you've talked to them though Mark. And it's a 100% mystery too. Even though in the rules it says we'll be given details on it's usage which has never happened: From 6.1.2: If NASA elects to begin compliance testing with GPS units without Dyno testing confirmation, competitors will be given adequate notice prior to their use, including details of the units to be used, so that they may do their own testing if desired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakisoba Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 dyno sheets can be fudged fairly easily - Traqmate and/or trackside dynos are the way to go imho. I'd love to see a trackside dyno. However, you catch cheaters by catching inconsistencies. So you make them hand in a dyno sheet, then have dynos available to check them if they win. Inconsistency == something fishy. But it starts with having them submit a sheet to begin with, from a shop you can contact. Raise the bar and cut out some shenanigans. I know it seems like a lot... but you would be simply amazed at what folks will do for a trophy. It's unreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 While I am a dynojet at the track fan, the nationals dyno experience sure leaves an uneasy feeling, especially for those of us near the limit. My local dynojet numbers/tune from June showed up nationals and read 26 hp less on the first pull! 23 hp less on the next 2 pulls. Then read 14 hp more after I changed some tuning (expected), jason's varied by ~20 hp from his paid for run to his impound run. I never saw my impound run, and I never had a GPS box so I don't know how they compared. All in all my numbers to jason's numbers varied by almost 25 hp from our lowest to highest, but when we were on the track, ours cars were as even as 2 restrictor plate Cup cars. (see video @ 1:00 and at 3:04) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 the alternative is you get your stuff torn down and get to take your winning car home in a box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 the alternative is you get your stuff torn down and get to take your winning car home in a box we begged them to put the winning PTA car on the dyno but they wouldn't do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 but you would be simply amazed at what folks will do for a trophy. It's unreal. And, when you up the ante with free Hoosiers, "what folks will do" goes up exponentially. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Dyno's also don't do a real good job on boosted cars where heat soak can cause major drops in hp. How about this, restrictors for every car. I will now duck and run for cover Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 restrictors for every boosted car. Sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 How about this, restrictors for every car. I will now duck and run for cover Peter Like this? TTF = 40mm TTE = 45mm TTD = 50mm TTC = 55mm TTB = 60mm TTA = 65mm Run, Peter! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 lol I can't see an AWD trackside dyno happening any time soon but I could be wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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