yakisoba Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 the alternative is you get your stuff torn down and get to take your winning car home in a box Gah. No one wants that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 You vette guys don't want us to use restrictors, ya haven't seen a rally car dyno sheet have ya....makes the torque curve INSANE, poof there goes your advantage lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 I can't see an AWD trackside dyno happening any time soon If the club is going to allow the cars, they should be able to verify their compliance the same as everyone else. Nobody should be exempt from testing, and certainly nobody should know ahead of time that they are going to be exempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 If the club is going to allow the cars, they should be able to verify their compliance the same as everyone else. Nobody should be exempt from testing, and certainly nobody should know ahead of time that they are going to be exempt. Egg Zactly. Using TM for compliance purposes is nothing more than a placebo mental game - period - end of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Honestly, I like the trackmate method more than dyno method: Dyno method: -Costs NASA a lot of money, thus higher event fees -Can be inaccurate for two reasons. a)heat soak, and b)would be easy for a 'cheater' to hit a switch/retune between track and dyno. -Takes a while to get cars tested -Dyno will not be at all events, people will know ahead of time Trackmate: -Cars are tested while actually on track, thus it predicts the actual hp they used on the track, not what it is 45 minutes after they were on track. -Cheaper -Quicker -Works for AWD cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 but you would be simply amazed at what folks will do for a trophy. It's unreal. And, when you up the ante with free Hoosiers, "what folks will do" goes up exponentially. Mark Free my azz. I spend a fortune vying for those free tires! But thank you Hoosier for the subsidy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 You vette guys don't want us to use restrictors, ya haven't seen a rally car dyno sheet have ya....makes the torque curve INSANE, poof there goes your advantage lol. Aww but you just use the higher torque figure. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 If the club is going to allow the cars, they should be able to verify their compliance the same as everyone else. Nobody should be exempt from testing, and certainly nobody should know ahead of time that they are going to be exempt. Egg Zactly. Using TM for compliance purposes is nothing more than a placebo mental game - period - end of story. Results may vary. With weight, distance and time I can work the math for HP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I can beat a dyno - it is harder with a good impound. Blowing your engine on cooldown has been done before... You catch cheaters with time and the little errors. They also rarely shut their mouths if you listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Results may vary. With weight, distance and time I can work the math for HP. here's my argument for that. 2 "identical" shaped C5 corvette's with 365 RWHP (same rpm limit) on a dynojet drum in their 1:1 gear. Same tires. One has a stock driveline weight and an M12 trans and 3.42 gears, one has 60 lbs removed from the driveline and has 4.10 gears with a close ratio gear box. You are saying both will cover the same distance in the same amount of time, say from 45-145 mph? Or said another way, do you think Red Bull would take 40 lbs of ballast off the belly of it's F1 car for the rest of the season, and build a 40 lb heavier clutch for their F1 car, (total car weight stays the same) add more spacing between the gears, and maybe taller gears, and not expect a reduction in straight line performance? This is not directed at you directly either, or your math prowess but I think it can be made into a good conversation/debate. I do not think time over distance is merely a matter of weight and peak power on a dynojet. That is not even getting into drag/scrub from varying toe angles, etc (you try moving a car around in your shop with a lot of toe in/out and one without, and it's noticable) discuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Free my azz. I spend a fortune vying for those free tires! scott complains about the shipping, schedules family vacations up north near hoosier's facility to save the freight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Results may vary. With weight, distance and time I can work the math for HP. here's my argument for that. 2 "identical" shaped C5 corvette's with 365 RWHP (same rpm limit) on a dynojet drum in their 1:1 gear. Same tires. One has a stock driveline weight and an M12 trans and 3.42 gears, one has 60 lbs removed from the driveline and has 4.10 gears with a close ratio gear box. You are saying both will cover the same distance in the same amount of time, say from 45-145 mph? Or said another way, do you think Red Bull would take 40 lbs of ballast off the belly of it's F1 car for the rest of the season, and build a 40 lb heavier clutch for their F1 car, (total car weight stays the same) add more spacing between the gears, and maybe taller gears, and not expect a reduction in straight line performance? This is not directed at you directly either, or your math prowess but I think it can be made into a good conversation/debate. I do not think time over distance is merely a matter of weight and peak power on a dynojet. That is not even getting into drag/scrub from varying toe angles, etc (you try moving a car around in your shop with a lot of toe in/out and one without, and it's noticable) discuss I was talking about track data... Dynos can be gamed...but so can anything. Smokey was the master! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Trackside dynos -- yes. TraqMate -- no. What do you have against a significantly cheaper and easier method? Accuracy and repeatability. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 IF Traqmate works then Traqmate is better. It's always on, it estimates HP on AWD cars, and it takes measurements when the car is competing. In today's world of easily switchable ignition maps, it's painfully easy to cheat a dyno test. I just think that there are too many variables to make it work properly. Elevation change? Wind direction? Drafting? Gearing? Aero? The list seems extensive and all of those variable seem difficult to correct for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_Eclipse9916 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 While I am a dynojet at the track fan, the nationals dyno experience sure leaves an uneasy feeling, especially for those of us near the limit. My local dynojet numbers/tune from June showed up nationals and read 26 hp less on the first pull! 23 hp less on the next 2 pulls. Then read 14 hp more after I changed some tuning (expected), jason's varied by ~20 hp from his paid for run to his impound run. I never saw my impound run, and I never had a GPS box so I don't know how they compared. All in all my numbers to jason's numbers varied by almost 25 hp from our lowest to highest, but when we were on the track, ours cars were as even as 2 restrictor plate Cup cars. (see video @ 1:00 and at 3:04) Interesting, my dyno at my home region did 230whp corrected, at nationals I did 229whp corrected. Demanding Dyno sheets is ridiculous. Only cars with power/weight reclasses are required to. If there is "suspected" cheating than guess what? You can protest. But I classed my car based on base classing, not power/weight. I shouldnt have to submit a dyno because I did it that way. Of course, I did get dynoed at regional and nationals anyway I could go up to I think ~250whp at my weight so I wasnt worried in the least. Although Greg did find it funny when he looked over the dyno sheet to proclaim that I had 260whp(actually 229) and my heart stopped for about 5 seconds till he started laughing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vettedoctor Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I think the traqmate data is only as good as the data that NASA has collected. All NASA is doing is comparing data - they are not using the number that TM comes up with - they have TM data of top cars and they compare the cornering, braking and acceleration over the run. NASA will see why car A was faster than car B (cornering, straits or braking - or a combination of 2 or all 3), right now they are still compiling the data that they will use as a baseline for a particular make and model. By using that data they are looking for a car that overachieves in one area vs another. So when they are looking at a C5 in TTA they are really comparing it to the other C5's in TTA as well as (possibly) previous data taken from the same car. Ideally every car would have multiple sessions to compare to, all I know is that between Miller and Mid-O, NASA has a lot of data on the cars that I work on. After hearing about the huge differances that Mark and Jason saw from the dyno at Nationals I'm really glad that NASA has some sort of fall-back option for if the dyno results seem off. IMHO I think they must have had an issue with the weather station for the dyno - weather it wasn't calibrated correctly or was in the sun etc. - that is the only way I can see a swing of 20 hp on our cars. I definatly haven't seen that from the MD dyno and our cars have been on that thing so often I'm thinking of buying into the damn thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Demanding Dyno sheets is ridiculous. Only cars with power/weight reclasses are required to. If there is "suspected" cheating than guess what? You can protest. But I classed my car based on base classing, not power/weight. I shouldnt have to submit a dyno because I did it that way. From the TT rules: 6.5.1, page 32: (The Dyno testing procedures also apply whenever dynamometer testing is used as a noninvasive tool to help determine technical compliance with the classification rules for any car.) and6.5.2, page 34: Alternatively, at their discretion, Time Trial Officials may have the vehicle sealed and transported for off-site Dyno testing at a later date. I'm not saying that 6.5.2 would happen, but it could happen. If anything, Jeff is respectfully requesting dyno testing in advance, not demanding it at an event (and screwing up your track time). Officials don't have to wait for a driver protest to roll in before inspecting a car. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 But I classed my car based on base classing, not power/weight. I shouldnt have to submit a dyno because I did it that way. But... 6.1.2 Minimum Adjusted Weight/Power Ratios for each ClassEach class has been assigned a minimum “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio. Regardless of how many points a car has, or which base class it begins in, it may not exceed the minimum “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio for its competition class. Any vehicle found competing with an “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio less than the minimum level assigned below will be disqualified, and additional penalties may be assessed. Depending on weight reduction or power creation, you could get caught in this one even with taking the appropriate points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Trackside dynos -- yes. TraqMate -- no. What do you have against a significantly cheaper and easier method? Accuracy and repeatability. Exactly. What about boosted cars that have a "special" map? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Since l leave my xray glasses at home I cannot see inside motors. Dyno sheets help me see inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 TM does the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_Eclipse9916 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 But I classed my car based on base classing, not power/weight. I shouldnt have to submit a dyno because I did it that way. But... 6.1.2 Minimum Adjusted Weight/Power Ratios for each ClassEach class has been assigned a minimum “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio. Regardless of how many points a car has, or which base class it begins in, it may not exceed the minimum “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio for its competition class. Any vehicle found competing with an “Adjusted” Weight/Power ratio less than the minimum level assigned below will be disqualified, and additional penalties may be assessed. Depending on weight reduction or power creation, you could get caught in this one even with taking the appropriate points. As stated, you MUST comply with rules, but you do NOT have to submit a dyno. Again, I shouldnt have to submit a dyno.(Do I need to say this twenty times , im not saying you cant dyno me, im saying I shouldnt have to for classing if I use my base class). I base classed to avoid the dyno, I knew I was way under. Officials, protestors, yes can make you dyno. I absolutely have no problem with that. But guess what? Its on their dime. I am now racing in GTS2 as well, and it sucks having to get a car dynoed (takes time out of the week when I have to work, costs money, etc). BTW- I say this as a way to remind those that we shouldnt have to. Reduction of time and dollars to enter TT is always a good thing. I support the current measures, I dont support making everybody have to go get dyno sheets, (pointless anyway as you can fudge it, id rather get required to dyno there if I get suspected of cheating). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 does the trackmate guess whp or flywheel? I'll have to look back at my data, but im not sure if i put in all my info correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 does the trackmate guess whp or flywheel? I'll have to look back at my data, but im not sure if i put in all my info correctly. It's calculating HP from the acceleration of the car so TM is looking at WHP. Multiply that by one minus your drive train loss in decimal form and that's your crank hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Look at the rules again. The Director can ask you to provide a dyno sheet on your dime at the dyno of his choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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